Covid Pandemic

[Antares]

That's quite the guarantee and suggested conspiracy. I'm assuming you have hard evidence?

No need for hard evidence.

It is merely the modus operandi for these types of things.

Anyway, I am just venting because I am sick of this bullshit and things need to change sooner rather than later; not just in Canada but globally. We are all slaves and most are unaware or in denial of that fact. Unfortunately, that's conspiracy talk nowadays! Oh no!

[PortKells]

Agents Provocateurs.

Classic tactic. Since PK highlighted consistency I'll give a recent example of that happening on the "other side": I recall some of the violence/instigating rioters associated with the whole BLM situation back in summer 2020 eventually being exposed as undercover police officers.

That is a classic tactic and yes it's happened countless times. But how can he claim it before it's even happened? Why not just disavow the violent separatist movement that has become central to this cause? Then if the government did try to sabotage it you would have a leg to stand on.

One reason I gave up on hope for protests to actually work was when I saw how fractured they really are. For example an environmental protest I attended was a mix of peace loving hippies, NIMBYs, and psycho anarchists who wanted to throw rocks at the police. And then there were passive observers like me, not sure what to do or say.

This protest is making the same mistake. You have to get rid of the violent opportunists if you want credibility.

[Typeing3]

That's quite the guarantee and suggested conspiracy. I'm assuming you have hard evidence?

You really don't think those in power (especially those who have gradually gotten more power) have never taken advantage of a situation that could potentially threaten to unite people into forcing them to concede some of their powers? It is in no way a conspiracy - it's just plain old common sense and literally the logical thing to do from their point of view.

[PortKells]

No need for hard evidence.

It is merely the modus operandi for these types of things.

Anyway, I am just venting because I am sick of this bullshit and things need to change sooner rather than later; not just in Canada but globally. We are all slaves and most are unaware or in denial of that fact. Unfortunately, that's conspiracy talk nowadays! Oh no!

I am definitely not unaware of these things but I see this protest making the same mistakes as so many others and IMO it will be doomed to fail. I've been there so don't think I'm drinking the koolaid or something. I can think for myself and still not support every half baked movement that claims to be the route to freedom.

As to the slaves thing. We buy things made from slaves and our whole economy is propped up by it. So if we oppose true slavery we should start with that.

I would say it's more like we are addicts. Addicted to what the system gives us but refusing to acknowledge what we are losing - connection, health, community, nature and so on.

[PortKells]

You really don't think those in power (especially those who have gradually gotten more power) have never taken advantage of a situation that could potentially threaten to unite people into forcing them to concede some of their powers? It is in no way a conspiracy - it's just plain old common sense and literally the logical thing to do from their point of view.

I don't think they will need to plant trouble makers to sabatoge this movement. It's literally headed by a separatist party.

[Antares]

I don't think they will need to plant trouble makers to sabatoge this movement. It's literally headed by a separatist party.

Yeah isn't it the Albertan Nationalists?

[Typeing3]

That is a classic tactic and yes it's happened countless times. But how can he claim it before it's even happened? Why not just disavow the violent separatist movement that has become central to this cause? Then if the government did try to sabotage it you would have a leg to stand on.

One reason I gave up on hope for protests to actually work was when I saw how fractured they really are. For example an environmental protest I attended was a mix of peace loving hippies, NIMBYs, and psycho anarchists who wanted to throw rocks at the police. And then there were passive observers like me, not sure what to do or say.

This protest is making the same mistake. You have to get rid of the violent opportunists if you want credibility.

Firstly I'm not going to pretend to be in the mind of some of these people though I do 100% agree with you that there definitely does seem to be many factions/groups within this overall convoy (as there were with the other protests you mentioned), but as is the case most of the time the most extreme voices within a group (even if it's only one person) will be amplified by the media or government in their attempt to paint the entire group as a bunch of crazy extremists or whatnot.


The "credibility" point you bring up is also highly dependent on one's point of view. For example, at the time, some of those participating in the "On-to-Ottawa Trek" in 1935 were met with similar rhetoric as the convoy is today.

From the point of view of the government, the protesters were a nuisance challenging their power (the leader was accused of being an "embezzler" by the prime minister), but from the point of view of the protesters they were attempting to fight for their rights.

And before anyone potentially says false equivalency, yes, I do realize there are obviously key differences comparing the situation from back then with the situation today. Some of the biggest include the tremendous difference in influence the media has today and the equally tremendous level of division in the country today specifically among the working/middle class compared with back then.

[Typeing3]

I don't think they will need to plant trouble makers to sabatoge this movement. It's literally headed by a separatist party.

But what if the vast, vast majority in the movement has nothing to do with the separatist party at all? Is it fair to say because there is one person who might have ulterior motives, the rest of the group does? Because like it or not that's certainly what's being peddled by the government and media at the moment.

[Typeing3]

As to the slaves thing. We buy things made from slaves and our whole economy is propped up by it. So if we oppose true slavery we should start with that.

I would say it's more like we are addicts. Addicted to what the system gives us but refusing to acknowledge what we are losing - connection, health, community, nature and so on.

If anything, I think one main point of shared agreement we all have is with this. It's a huge problem which I don't see being solved anytime soon.

[PortKells]

But what if the vast, vast majority in the movement has nothing to do with the separatist party at all? Is it fair to say because there is one person who might have ulterior motives, the rest of the group does? Because like it or not that's certainly what's being peddled by the government and media at the moment.

Fair enough but then why aren't we talking about how the vast majority of truckers are vaccinated and the majority of people are supportive of government mandates?

Now as I say that, I'm not dismissing the movement. Im just saying, our society is very fractured for many reasons. If one side is aggrieved, should they be accommodated? If so, then I expect those folks to be consistent and extend those beliefs to other movements with similar support. If not...then I'm not sure I buy into this idea that anyone who doesn't support this is a government and media eating slave as has been suggested.

[Typeing3]

Fair enough but then why aren't we talking about how the vast majority of truckers are vaccinated and the majority of people are supportive of government mandates?

Now as I say that, I'm not dismissing the movement. Im just saying, our society is very fractured for many reasons. If one side is aggrieved, should they be accommodated? If so, then I expect those folks to be consistent and extend those beliefs to other movements with similar support. If not...then I'm not sure I buy into this idea that anyone who doesn't support this is a government and media eating slave as has been suggested.

Ironically I've seen that fact being mentioned by the media and government countless times in recent days. Also it would be prudent not to equate getting vaccinated with support of vaccine mandates. Obviously there is overlap but there also is plenty of non-overlap.

Yes I agree they should be accommodated. I personally have no idea whether many from any side also try to extend those beliefs to other causes that they many not personally agree with, though I'm sure there are plenty who fall in that camp. You and I seem to be among them, which I see as a good thing. Also just to be clear there obviously is no definitive answer stating whether everyone in X movement supports the right to protest but will not support the right to protest for Y movement.

[Antares]

Convoyers have suggested civil war and use of weapons, so let me correct you on that. But my original reply was to Antares' guillotine suggestion which is right there for all to see.

Also I just want to make it clear I wasn't advocating for violence at the convoy in Ottawa, as that would certainly be to its detriment.

Just thinkin' out loud is all.

[PortKells]

If anything, I think one main point of shared agreement we all have is with this. It's a huge problem which I don't see being solved anytime soon.

It's a matrix out there. Ive tried to reconcile my beliefs with some sort of political ideology and it doesn't exist. I still vote, and I guess on social issues I lean left, but those parties are all the same corrupt bunch. For me it's not about voting, it's about creating self sustaining communities, but that sounds too much like communism which funny enough, I've seen firsthand on this farm why it fails.

[Antares]

It's a matrix out there. Ive tried to reconcile my beliefs with some sort of political ideology and it doesn't exist. I still vote, and I guess on social issues I lean left, but those parties are all the same corrupt bunch. For me it's not about voting, it's about creating self sustaining communities, but that sounds too much like communism which funny enough, I've seen firsthand on this farm why it fails.

Yep self-sustaining communities really sounds wonderful to be honest. I would totally love that if it worked.

Not to get too off topic of course.

[John]

[quote=PortKells post_id=866181 time=1643423411 user_id=911]
Fair enough but then why aren't we talking about how the vast majority of truckers are vaccinated and the majority of people are supportive of government mandates?


The majority of people support mandates? I absolutely DONT believe that! They support vaccine yes not mandates